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Older Discussions (Canada vs. AK)

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Post  DJJoko (John) Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:45 am

Yes, I think this site will do nicely to collaborate about all of this...

Firstly, there seems to be a lot of confusion about where to go. I have been planning on taking off in the spring for a few months now. In the beginning, I started researching where to go.

My suggestion would be Alaska. Yes, I know... the conditions there can be extremely severe. Because of shelter being the main issue (next to food, of course), I'm not crazy about the idea of continuously moving around. I'd rather settle in, build a small but insulated fortress, and begin developing systems to sustain my life and learn the land like a kind of science. I think survival out there will be difficult enough, let alone constantly pulling up roots and moving around all the time.

Squatting is a huge issue. If you are caught, you will be removed from the land... or worse yet, arrested. Our government has made it a big issue just in the past 30 years or so. Alaska has parts which are thousands of acres large, where you can go on for miles and never encounter another soul. I think there are also probably parts of Canada like this too... but that would mean getting passports (which now include microchips built into them, just to pass the info along) and possibly other complications too (though I don't really know for sure). I wouldn't be against Canada in the least, if that's what the group decided to do.

My biggest issue here is in making sure that we are not found squatting and breaking laws, as rediculous as they may be. If this is to be done in a cold climate, their must be a constant fire roaring... and where there is fire, there is smoke. The smoke alone could sound an alarm for the forestry or other law enforcement agencies, causing them to come and investigate.

Does anyone else have thoughts to add onto this??


Last edited by DJJoko (John) on Sun Nov 23, 2008 1:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post  benjammin08 Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:31 pm

I agree with you on the whole making a fire deal and law enforcements coming after us. Alaska though is an extremely dangerous place to go, especially for all of us. We'd have to cross rivers, climb mountains and deal with grizzly bears and wild moose. I'm all for it but again we'd have to get there. From where I live thats about 5,000 miles.

Now Canada sounds great since it's just north of GNP. We could go to GNP and then go to Canada. But whatever. I just wanna go!!!!!
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Post  Ryan Fri Oct 24, 2008 4:15 pm

benjammin08 wrote:Alaska though is an extremely dangerous place to go, especially for all of us. We'd have to cross rivers, climb mountains and deal with grizzly bears and wild moose.


Well anywhere we go in the wild we well have obstacles. Wherever we do decide to go, there wont be a bridge made up for us to cross a river, or a pass around a mountain, you know? And with wildlife, we well have to worry about all sorts of animals, like bears, wolfes, mountain lions, and anything else that is out there. But at least if we were in AK, we would be able to have an open fire, w/o worry of being spotted by someone , and them being concerned it was a wildfire.

-Ryan
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Post  benjammin08 Fri Oct 24, 2008 5:03 pm

Well like I said. If that's were you guys wanna go then that's cool with me. Just letting you know that Alaska is a little dangerous. im down for whatever. So let's do this. We can do it like Chris McCandles and head out to Healy, AK. Then set off to the stampede trail. Or we can do Denali park. We'd be close to law enforcements then again though.

Question though would be on how we would get out there. What do you guys think?
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Post  DJJoko (John) Sat Oct 25, 2008 2:33 am

I have been trying to study Google Earth (although it is difficult). After my earlier research on a location in Alaska (if it were to be AK at all), it seems that somewhere outside of Anchorage would be the ideal place.

Firstly, there is an international airport there, for those who could afford to fly in. We could all meet up there and head out from that location. I doesn't seem that we would need to go far... maybe 35-40 miles away from Anchorage, to find a good location.

I'm truly not trying to push AK, but here is some info about it that I have found:

1) First, here is a link to hardiness zones in AK. http://www.heirloomseeds.com/alaska.htm
For those who don't know, hardiness zones are used for growers of plants of all sorts, to determine just how cold a plant can get before it dies. It serves the purpose here simply to show what kind of extreme temperatures (especially the lows) to expect in any area of AK. I'm looking at the 3a or 3b zones (the light orange and red). Hardiness zone maps simply show known extremes and that's important to remember. This map shows how low the temps could go, not the average. Point is, it's a pretty temperate area... for AK, at least.

2) Here is a link to a pretty decent map of AK. http://www.alaskatourismjobs.com/StateMap.aspx

If you compare the map to the previous hardiness zone map, you'll see that the Anchorage area kind of sits inbetween the two zones, 3a and 3b. The rule of hardiness zones is to look at the the next colder zone after the one you plan to actually be in. If you (or your plants) can handle the next coldest zone's extreme colds, you know you'll be fine in the one you'll actually be in.

3) I really don't like the looks of Denali's zone. It's 15-20 degrees colder (or, it has the potential to be) than the Anchorage area. It was the first thing I'd noticed after seeing "Into the Wild". I wondered why Chris would have gone so far north. -30 has got to be a bitch to endure. -50 just seems like suicide.

4) Another point about the Anchorage area that I like is that the area is not in or near a state park area. Denali is nothing but a state park. The penalty for being caught while squatting on land would be bad enough... it's worse (though I don't by exactly how much) if caught on state park or reserve land.

5) I know the hardiness zones of the southern part of AK, near the penninsula, look nice and warm... but the problem there is that the penninsula is basicly rock. Very few trees grow in that area, so obviously it would be a bad choice for this.

6) Another big concern with the location being AK is the amount of daylight hours during the winter. Here's a chart which shows the main areas of AK and just how many daylight hours you'd expect to get in the winter. http://www.absak.com/library/average-annual-insolation-alaska

Anchorage isn't bad, comparitively. At it's worst, it still gets about 5 1/2 hours of daylight per day... and it increases very quickly with each month that passes. That is a huge deal for growing edible plants... or hunting and fishing, or whatever else you'd need to do outside.

Here is another easy to comprehend map of sunlight and climate conditions in AK. http://www.anchorage.net/684.cfm

7) The biggest seller of AK is simply it's population. The state is more than twice the size of Texas... yet it's entire population is less than than of NYC. That's amazing. There can be no place in the U.S. where you'd be less likely to be found.

There's what I've found, in a nutshell. What are your thoughts??

John
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Post  Chris Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:50 pm

I dont know about you guys but this would be my first time actualy trying to lave and survive in the wild... Ive been doing outdoor acticities since I was young but that doesnt compare to what were talking about doing right now... I don't know to much about Alaska but that its not the safest place to be.

Now naturaly anywhere we choose to go its gonna be dangerous but as far as GNP or places in canada, but I still dont feel it compares to dangeres you would have in alaska...

I felt that GNP was an excelent place or some place like it, even if its just for a month or so just to try and get the hang of things and get well aquanted with others that are coming...

Thats just a few of my thaught on things I will be posting more now that I know about this...

By the way my name is chris and its nice to halfway meet all of you, and I'm looking forward to doing this with whoever is serious about it...
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Post  benjammin08 Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:45 pm

well we have to figure out pretty soon what locations were going with. I have bought a book on identifying and using edible plants. I don't think it will cover all, if any, from Alaska. I hope you guys are still thinking of another location. I was in Ocala this weekend and discussed with Chaz the locations. British Columbia, Alberta, Idaho, and Alaska came up. I told him that I didnt think Alaska would be a great first choice. If were not going to stay at one location for much long I think that should be a later location. We should start with a location that's not so harsh and then move on somewhere else once we get aquainted with each other. So if you guys are down with Britishh Columbia or Alberta let me hear it. I wanna get away from the grid but not put our lives in jeapordy.
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Post  Chris Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:54 pm

Ok I was reading a post that ryan left I believe saying that GNP was not part of the plan anymore or what not... I was just wondering what happened because i that that place was a Kick ass spot...

please reply...
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Post  Ryan Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:18 pm

sn33k wrote:Ok I was reading a post that ryan left I believe saying that GNP was not part of the plan anymore or what not... I was just wondering what happened because i that that place was a Kick ass spot...

please reply...


Hey well we decided with it being a national park and all, that we would have better luck elsewhere, including that it snows year round in that spot, also it would not be a good area to grow a crop of food, and smoke would easily be visible, and that would bring un needed attention
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Post  anarchyintheak Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:48 pm

Hi guys, my name is Rachel. I live in the small town of Girdwood, AK about 40 minutes Southeast of Anchorage. I moved to AK permanently about a year and a half ago, after my second summer working in Denali. I came across an original group on Couchsurfing and got curious and when I got the message today about this forum, I thought some of my input might be useful.

To start, I just thought I might clear up a few things regarding this post from DJJoko:

Regarding the Anchorage as a starting place, I agree. Really it's the most reasonable, but I still feel you would likely have to travel farther than you think to find a suitable location for whatever it is you're proposing. (A commune of sorts?) Most of the more easily accessible land around Anchorage is Chugach National Forest (I think I got that right) and all of it is heavily traveled by low flying planes and helicopters. It is very possible to squat out there, and many people do, but to practice real Alaskan self-sufficiency I think you would need to obtain rights or permission in one way or another to private land to really set up the way you need to.

In this part of Alaska last year, it was frequently warmer here than in parts of the Northern US. Watching the Superbowl, for example, we were complaining about balmy 34 degree weather while the players were struggling through negative temps in...where was it, Green Bay? We experienced a few days in February of minus 20 degree weather, but when you're used to dressing for the weather, it really wasn't that bad.

To clarify, there are places in AK when it CAN snow at any time of year, but as a rule, summers in the interior are generally much more pleasant than they are farther south. Fairbanks is infamous for holding both record lows and record highs for the state, it's not uncommon to enjoy weeks on end of 70-80 degree weather in the summer. I'll personally never spend another summer down here on the coast. Interior summers are much better for growing food. Also, there is more open land, for whatever you may need.

Down south where I am, the fishing is incredibly bountiful and the trees in many areas (something you find much less of as you go North) offer more cover. There's also a lot of edible plants here that I tend to appreciate much more than what is generally gleaned from the tundra up north.

Keep in mind that while it is warmer here in the winter than in the interior, we get much more snow. (Something I consider a good thing. Makes it easier to get around either by ski, snowshoe or dogsled.)

The Kenai peninsula is not mostly rock. It has more trees than most of the places in the interior. In fact, Girdwood, where I live, is the Northernmost temperate rainforest in the US. We also border one of the most glaciated regions in the world and sit on a tidal flat which boasts one of the largest Tidal Bores in the world. This region of Alaska was first settled during the gold rush and to this day is productive to recreational (and professional) prospectors.

Going back to the whole squatting thing, there are actually a large number of tree houses already built on state and federally owned property around Girdwood. The people that generally reside there at any given time are typically, more or less, living off the land in one way or another. There is obviously no electricity or water to these places, and most people are unemployed. They drink from the glacier creeks in the area, and heat with fallen and beetle killed timber. Berries, fish, and various other wild food stuffs are staples.

Traditionally, if you're trying to live off the land in Alaska in the winter, you work all summer long to gather and grow your food supply for the entire year and preserve it. While the winter months basically suck for growing things, we are infamous for growing giant veggies in the summer that basically dwarf everything you've ever seen because we have so much MORE daylight in the summer.

I'd also like to note that while there may be some people out there that have gone completely off the grid and survived entirely off the land in a basically prehistoric manner, it's not generally the way it's done. You need certain nutrients and foodstuffs to survive (with some level of real success) that Alaska, or ANY one location, can't offer you. Furthermore, consider original Indigenous cultures--are you willing to go (illegally, I might add) hunt seals and beluga and caribou and moose to sustain yourself? The blubber, fur, and meat of those animals was what made a completely self-sustaining lifestyle possible here, and even then average lifespan and comparative health was dismal.

On the other hand, there are quite a few people out there that successfully live off the land in amazing remote places with one or two trips into town a year to stock up on some basic foodstuffs, some necessary fuel sources, tools, et cetera. Even your original sourdoughs did this. They subsidize their trips by hunting and trapping and cottage industry crafts or whatever. Some of them power some limited communication/power sources with renewable energy.

Anyway. That's some food for thought. I've been working for a while on a completely self-sustainable lifestyle, but I think if you're goal is to never see another human being again, you need to look towards a climate closer to the equator with year-round capability of providing lots of fruits, vegetables, grains and fish.
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